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Ireland's political and cultural magazine
— June - July 2010
TL: Have you got any particular things you
would like to achieve if you became Minister
for Environment?
JT: Well, I suppose if I had the whole brief –
because you know the way it’s split between
Ciarán Lynch and myself [Ciarán Lynch
is spokesperson on Housing and Local
Government, while Tuffy is spokesperson on
Environment and Heritage] - I think enhanc-
ing the whole role of local authorities would
be very important to me if I was Minister
for the Environment, Heritage and Local
Government.
I think we can use the Local Authorities
much more. I would look at the whole issue
of job creation and community development
– protecting the environment. And the issue of
funding is very important to me. I think some
local authorities are better catered for in fund-
ing than others.
►
Environment Minister John Gormley seems
to be insisting that there be a set of plans
from a national plan to regional plans to
county to local area plans and these will be
imposed on the local authorities. How does
this empower the Local Authorities?
That’s an issue that creates a dilemma. We’d
be supportive of the general principle of the
Minister in terms of providing more checks
and balances, so zoning powers of county coun-
cils aren’t abused. Certainly, you need national
plans and regional plans - spatial strategy -
and so on but I do think at the end of the day
you should do everything you can to enhance
local democracy. I think that if decisions are
taken that are bad in terms of development
then there should be something done about it.
I think that kind of intervention is necessary.
But I think there may be a bigger issue about
planning. Our present laws about the way land
could be either rezoned - huge amounts of it - or
it could be restricted, has meant that in the past
it gave a value to land, it made the whole thing
Joanna Tuffy
Labour party spokesman on environment
and heritage
interview tony lowes
speculative - how do you stop that?
How you ensure that rezoning decisions are
done for the benefit of the community is not a
straight forward thing. Even restricting rezon-
ings can in some ways backfire.
Does the Spatial Strategy need to be
amended – do we need a new spatial strategy?
There is need to take stock in places where
there has been huge development in commuter
belts and the infrastructure hasn’t kept pace
with it. I think we need to be wary of thinking
we can go back to where we were. And I’d be
worried – I think the Green Party need to look
at that too.
The Minister is bringing in planning legisla-
tion but I think maybe we need to look at it even
more deeper than that. Maybe a Green Paper
and a White Paper should be considered in rela-
tion to planning.
Were you a Councillor when the corruption
was going on?
No, I wasn’t. My father was involved – he would
have run for election at the time the decision
was being taken in relation to Quarryvale,
and he would have opposed the location.
Unfortunately he didn’t make it - he didn’t get
elected at the time. I was involved myself – I
was one of the founding members of the Lucan
Planning council and I was involved in a par-
ish Council so I was a local activist, very often
opposing controversial planning decisions
Has the culture changed?
It has hugely changed. I think in general, cer-
tainly in Dublin, - you know I am only able to
speak about what I know best – but I think in
general things have improved.
People have to make declarations about their
donations, about the amount of money they
spend on elections, and I think that that has
been very helpful in that it has made Councillors
and TD know better where the boundaries are
themselves. I think it’s more difficult for poli-
ticians to operate in a grey area – I think it has
helped clean up politics. I don’t say its perfect.
► -
What do you think of high-rise
development?
I am wary of it. I support the idea of higher
density within reason – but perhaps in Dublin
once it’s started, it’s hard to stop. Personally
there needs to be something done about how
they look. The whole idea was that higher
density would mean better design but it hasn’t
worked out that way. I don’t have the answer. I
wouldn’t be an expert – but there must be some
way there can be stronger requirements about
the look of a building. Some of the recent ones
look terrible – boxy looking. They don’t inte-
grate with the landscape and are not nice to
look at. When you look at other countries: they
have high buildings and they look nice.
► -
What about one-offs in the countryside?
I think that’s a huge issue. I think there needs
to be – again - an element of stakeholder
involvement. But I don’t think it’s sustainable.
I don’t think the Guidelines a few years ago
worked. I think you have to encourage people.
Maybe there’s some solution where you can
provide for couples in towns. You could say
well OK we are going to make a site available.
There might be some solution for clustering
houses in the rural area, sustainably. I’m not
a planner so I can’t come up with solutions but
they haven’t been explored.
►
What about planning enforcement? Councils
continue to purchase material from unau-
thorised quarries. Is that not part and par-
cel of the whole picture of the old Ireland?
I think there is a general thing –- we need to
regulate. This idea that there was too much
regulation has been shown very much not to
be true. I think regulation is a very good thing.
I think there are lots of things we need to look
at regulating.
What about requiring planning clearance
certificates before councils can purchase
materials from them?
I think there are lots of things we need to look
at regulating.
Is there any future in separating develop-
ment bodies like Local Authorities from the
regulatory bodies?
I don’t think you need new bodies – I am very
wary of this idea of setting up new agencies – a
national water agency or whatever.
►
One of the things that came in the 2000
Planning Act is a requirement that you had
to pay a fee and have made a submission
on a planning application with the Local
Authority before you could appeal it to An
Bord Pleanála. Was that a fair restriction?
I don’t agree with that. I think that majorily
hampered local participation. Ok, it may have
meant more reading material for the planners,
but I think that it was much better. Very often
it was submissions that weren’t for or against
– they simply wanted improvement. The thing
is people can make the local planners aware
of issues – make them think of things they
mightn’t have thought themselves.
►
What about Labour’s position on water
rates?
Our main concern is really about what is the
priority right now. We don’t have a problem
with water as only .% of our resources are
used - where there is a scarcity in other parts
of the world.
But up to % of our water is lost – the
lowest local rate is around % but generally
– % - because infrastructure is very poor.
Only % of the budget in the last years was
invested in plugging the leaks. Also we have a
huge problem in the quality. If you divert
and million to invest in the installation of
water meters it’s a hugely problematic project.
“The whole idea
was that higher
density would
mean better
design but it
hasn’t worked out
that way.”
— June - July 2010
We believe that it will be difficult to charge
in a way that is fair – different types: older peo-
ple, babies, it’s hard to cater for that. If you pro-
vide good water, you are providing dignity and
health. It’s an important anti-poverty measure –
extremely important in terms of public health.
When it comes to water charging, I think
there are other ways of encouraging peo-
ple. I think when the council does this, peo-
ple respond to awareness campaigns. I know I
represent a fair amount of the population when I
am brushing my teeth. One of the things we have
heard is that you don’t need to run the tap. I’m
very wary of buying into this idea of pricing - I
think there is a lot we can do with the natural
inclination to environment.
►
What about the Windfall Tax on rezoning
profits and the Kenny Report?
I’m not sure about the windfall tax – how it will
operate in practice. Councils are not rezoning
lots of land at the moment. So will it still be
in place?
I think the Kenny Report is better. I was
on the all-party committee on housing. That
Committee took a favourable view to the Kenny
Report or something along those lines. We need
to move away from a small group of developers
hoarding land – that not been good for plan-
ning policy. Those guys are so big, they have
such huge resources in drawing up plans and
lobbying.
There seems to be no attempt in the present
planning bill to address the failure of the
social housing requirements in the 2001
Planning Act?
Yeah, something went wrong. Although the
idea was good, it left too much focus on the
private developer delivering for people who
needed affordable housing. I think there
needs to be a stronger element of public hous-
ing. We want a good, strong component of
social housing delivered directly. Mind you,
I’m not the spokesman - my colleague will
be coming up with proposals about housing.
But certainly our record from to
shows increased social housing which went
back down again after we were out. I think
that a lot of the stuff we did in the last few
years was in terms of a housing bubble that
has to be looked at.
►
The Labour Party at their conference
appeared to support further turf cutting in
the designated European nature conserva-
tion sites. Is that one under your remit?
It is my remit – I think the point that’s being
made is that human beings are part of the
environment. I think that more could be done
to involve the turf-cutters and there could
be more flexibility. We had the Turf-cutters’
Association speaking to the Environmental
Committee and my own impression was there
should have been more consultation terms of
the way National Parks and Wildlife Service
and the Department of Environment imple-
ments these decisions. They need to get into
conflict-resolution and problem-solving and
get people on board.
My parents were from Mayo and I spent a
lot of time at my cousins with my Dad where we
cut turf. It was an important social element. The
people did so much for animal welfare. They did
whatever they could to preserve the environ-
ment – the actual people and their role in it. It’s
not about getting people more money because
we do want people stay on the land and preserve
certain traditions. That is the way I would tend
to be sympathetic to people on the ground.
It’s not just turf-cutting – I’ve come across
local communities who feel that the Habitats
Directive can be a bit inflexible. Another exam-
ple: sometimes land is isolated by protected
areas and you can’t develop – you can’t do any-
thing on it but there’s people running quads
up it or whatever. So I think things can back-
fire. I’m not blaming the NPWS [National Parks
and Wildlife Service]. My understanding is that
Directives are decided by the EU and the imple-
mentation is here. Maybe it’s at EU level that it
needs to be explored a bit more.
►
What about the issues of countryside
pursuits?
Just again – Ciarán is dealing with the Dog
Breeding Bill. But when it comes to the Wildlife
Bill we will have to take a stance on that. We’re a
democratic Parliamentary Labour Party - that’s
how we make our decisions. I’m at the moment
listening to the different points of view, look-
ing at the issues with the Bill itself.
►
Incineration?
I’m worried about the approach hat has been
taken that it could be all consuming, that it will
compromise the strategic waste-management
plans. If it’s going to happen I think its some-
thing we should take very cautiously. I think
Dublin City Council was taking on board this
idea of an ever-growing economy. I think it’s
a strategy issue that should be controlled by
the state. I think the emphasis should be on
recycling. I certainly think there shouldn’t be
a mad rush towards incineration – the more
you incinerate the less goes into recycling. So
that’s the Labour Party’s position.
►
Finally, Climate change?
Climate change is Liz McManus [Liz McManus,
Spokesperson on Communications, Energy
and Natural Resources] but the more equality
you have within countries the better able you
are to tackle climate change. The idea that the
poor countries are worse – do something about
the fact they are poor.
I think environmentalists need to remember
that the issue is poverty, so I think that a core
value has to be the delivery of equality within
countries and across the world.
“I certainly think
there shouldn’t
be a mad
rush towards
incineration –
the more you
incinerate the
less goes into
recycling”
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