Menu
Ireland's political and cultural magazine
34 October/November 2023 October/November 2023 35
I believe in giving people
opportunity and working
with others in a spirit of co-
operation and collaboration;
being decent and having
good values in that sense
Michael Smith conducted a wide ranging
interview with the Minister
MS: How were you infl uenced by your
childhood?
MMG:
We’re all a refl ection of where we come
from and our childhood experience. I had a
fantastic childhood and come from a very
humble background. And I suppose I was
really determined growing up to take the
opportunities that I had and which my parents
didn’t have by virtue of their own life
experience and their journey. I think it’d be a
hunger and a drive to do well but also it gave
me a very good sense of perspective about
what’s most important in life and it defi nitely
helped to lead me to a life of public service.
Because I think there’s great meaning and
great value from public service and I get huge
enjoyment from it; and I think that concern can
be traced back to my background.
MS: What do you consider your main
achievements in politics so far?
MMG:
I really think it’s for others to come to a
view about what your achievements are and for
me much of the satisfaction comes from the
quiet, private moments that you have
interacting with constituents in your o ce on
sometimes extremely sensitive and personal
issues and helping them through those issues;
and I know I and my team have changed lives
for the better in many, many instances.
MS: Could you mention an instance of
that?
MMG:
In our role you come across all kinds of
circumstances: serious illness and
bereavement and tragedy and financial
di culty — just instances where the system
has let somebody down. I have had cases
including just recognition of birth certs and
recognition of parentage — things like, that
that have been really life changing for people.
MS: How would you describe your political
philosophy and your vision for Ireland?
MMG: You know it would be it would be
centrist by nature. I believe in giving people
opportunity and working with others in a spirit
of co-operation and collaboration; being
decent and having good values in that sense.
And so my philosophy is a pragmatic one but
it is it is certainly about working towards a
country that is fair and that aff ords opportunity
to people.
MS: And a vision for Ireland specifi cally?
MMG: I think there is very good economic
opportunity in Ireland and I think we have
work to do to bring the quality of our services
up to match where our economy is at and
where public expectations are rightly high,
particularly in housing and that is undoubtedly
the number one domestic priority as far as I’m
concerned.
MS: Who are your political heroes,
nationally and internationally?
MMG:
Brian Lenihan had a huge infl uence on
me. I did work closely with him in those latter
years. I was only a backbench TD, newly
Mild cenris
in freneic nd
frcious imes
elected but came from a fi nancial background
and so Brian would have taken me into to
confi dence. I’m very proud to have a portrait
of him hanging in my o ce in the Department
of Finance because I have a huge amount of
regard and respect for him.
MS: Anyone internationally?
MMG:
No, I’ll leave it at Brian. I’m happy with
the one.
MS: So just in terms of your political
philosophy or your politics would it be
fair to describe you, as has been done, as
socially and economically conservative?
MMG:
I’m not really into labels. Judge me by
my response on any given issue. I don’t think
I’m conservative when it comes to ambition
Conor Lenihan and Michael Smith interviewed
Michael McGrath, Minister for Finance, a few days
before Village went to press. He was attended by
his advisor, Kevin Barrett. There was some delay in
confi rming the interview in the busy run-up to the
budget, but in the end the interview lasted
a full hour. The Minister was charming and good-
humoured to the point of serenity.
THE VILLAGE
INTERVIEW
34 October/November 2023 October/November 2023 35
for Ireland and the need that I see for us to
improve the services we provide. I get very
frustrated at the experience of many families
who have a child with a disability. I just think
we can do far better. I’m not conservative
when it comes to people and this country. We
are the person that we are.
MS: Do you believe in equality and if so
what type?
MMG:
I believe in human dignity and respect
for each other and I think that is evidenced by
my approach to politics. I can work well with
people and because I respect others I respect
diff erence and I absolutely believe in equality
in all respects.
MS: Would you be more inclined to equality
of outcome or equality of opportunity?
MMG:
I think equality of opportunity is one
that we can most assure. I think through our
policy decisions and safety nets we have and
the supports that are in place and providing
resources in disadvantaged areas. I think you
can go a long way to providing equality of
opportunity. You can certainly aim for it. I
think guaranteeing equality of outcome is not
really possible because there are so many
variables involved in that but I do think that
you can go a long way as a country to making
sure there’s an opportunity for everyone and
I think we have made progress in that regard
but there are communities now that they feel
they are that behind and I think that is work
we have to do better on.
MS: How would you defi ne the ideological
differences between FF, FG and SF?
MMG: I’d prefer to speak about Fianna Fáil
and who were are rather than defi ning us
relative to other parties. We’re a centre-left
party. We believe in giving people
opportunities through education and
employment and support for the most
vulnerable. We believe in investment in
education and we believe in the enterprise
company. This will be refl ected in the decisions
that I make in the budget.
MS: What do you consider the major
dangers to the economy? Is there a danger
of an Irish or a global recession, near-
term?
MMG:
I think the biggest immediate danger
to the health of the global economy is the
impact of tightening monetary policy on
demand. As an open economy that’s a model
of successful exports, I think that is the single
biggest risk near term. I don’t think a global
recession in the aggregate is likely but it is
possible that some of Ireland’s main trading
partners, and highly-developed countries
generally, would experience recession but
developing economies will grow at a level to
sustain some global growth.
I don’t envisage a recession in Ireland but
growth will be much more modest than last
year’s near 10%, by whatever measure you
use: GDP or modifi ed domestic demand. GDP
I think will be pretty fl at in 2023, and I note the
ESRI has just forecast negative GDP growtn of
1.6% for the year, but we will have growth in
what we would regard as a better measure of
our economy, modifi ed domestic demand, and
we will have growth next year.
MS: What will the key priorities be for your
fi rst budget?
MMG: The cost of living, housing, and an
enterprise economy.
MS: What will you do to curtail infl ation?
MMG: The key thing there is not to add too
much fuel to the fi re. Infl ation will naturally fall
and rising interest rates will play their part in
that. The important thing for the government
is not to do anything that would push infl ation
in the opposite direction.
MS: Is our taxation system in general fair
and is our corporate tax regime ethical?
MMG:
I believe that our taxation system is fair
overall — we’ve a highly progressive income
tax system. The amount you pay even as a
proportion of your income rises very
signifi cantly in line with your income. I think
that is the most fair way to do it. Our corporate
tax system is ethical. It has changed very
signifi cantly in recent years. We’ve had a
whole range of diff erent reforms introduced
and we will have more of this in the Finance
Bill with the introduction of the additional two
and a half percent rate for the very large
companies.
MS: Have quality of life indicators
moved centre stage as envisaged in the
programme for government?
MMG: Yes, and we are now investing more
and more in measures of well-being and on
budget day we publish a paper that it looks
beyond GDP. That’s the title of it and it looks
at all of the metrics that are important when it
comes to assessing quality of life. I am
conscious that living standards are taking a
step over the last 18 months because of
infl ation, but I do think across next year we will
be making gains again in living standards.
MS: Do you think we could ever have a
single fi gure that shows, the same way as
GDP does for the economy, the direction
which quality of life has taken — a 3%
improvement or whatever?
MMG: It is di cult to quantify because it
depends on the weighting that you attach to
the diff erent elements that feed into any
quality of life metric.
MS: Do we have enough capital taxes, and
would you be in favour of higher property
taxes, in principle?
MMG: We are getting into kind of specifi c
territory (which is not permitted in the run up
to the budget). Broadly speaking we do have
well established capital taxes at a rate of 33%
which have been both higher and lower in the
past and over time we will have to make a
decision about where we want them to be but
We’re a centre-left party.
We believe in giving people
opportunities through
education and employment
and support for the most
vulnerable
Min dnger to globl ecomony is effect of tightening monetry policy on demnd
36 October/November 2023 October/November 2023 37
we do have an established system of collecting
wealth in Ireland through our capital taxes,
property taxes and other ways.
MS: Is there scope for more sugar taxes?
MMG:
We do have a sugar tax but we do have
to be conscious that the cost of living is really
high for many and low-income households
feel the burden of high grocery costs more
than other households. We just have to
consider when is the appropriate time to
introduce further measures in that area.
MS: Do you expect the current government
to improve inequality during its time in
office and under what measure?
MMG: Yes I do, and when you look at the
pattern over recent years income equality in
Ireland and poverty levels have improved so
we have established ways of measuring that
through the ESRI and other fora. Over the
course of its term in oce will have made
progress on reducing inequality.
MS: Do you think this government is
making adequate progress on housing and
health?
MMG:
I think we are making progress on both
but we need to do more and we need to do it
faster.
MS: What do you think of Sinn Féin’s
housing policy?
MMG:
I think it’s unrealistic to say that if you
spend billions of euro more next year you’ll get
tens of thousands of extra public houses next
year. It just doesn’t reflect the reality of how
homes get delivered: there’s a lengthy lead-in
period. There are real capacity constraints —
there are labour shortages and materials
inflation.
The government and the Department of
Housing aren’t short of money when it comes
to building homes and the other issues have
constrained delivery, it has not been funding.
MS: Do you think there’s an ideological
obstacle to be overcome to provide more
housing?
MMG: There certainly is not. I mean we’ve
gone back to building public housing at scale
— seven and a half thousand direct public
home builds last year, the highest in 50 years.
We need to do more and this government I think
has pushed building housing and building
public housing to the centre of policy.
MS: Do you think ideological reasons
account for the move away from local
authorities building housing themselves?
MMG:
I think performance varies around the
country but some of them have got out of the
practice of building homes and they have to
step back into that space and to do so
aggressively and working with approved
housing bodies. I think it might be an issue of
capacity and expertise. It’s not happening as
well as it should but in many places it is.
MS: Do you think the national development
plan and the national planning framework
get the balance of growth right between
Dublin and the rest of the country, and what
are you doing in the Department of Finance
about it?
MMG: So we are reviewing the national
planning framework at the moment because a
lot has changed in Ireland over the last number
of years and remote working in particular opens
up enormous opportunities for rural and
regional Ireland and that will be reflected in the
new NPF and then underpinned by public
capital-investment decisions.
MS: By what amount do you think
greenhouse gas emissions will be reduced
over the term of this government?
MMG:
I think meeting our targets set out in the
climate action plan is going to be challenging.
But we will do everything we possibly can to get
there. The eventual target as you know is 2030
and then 2050 and I think we are making
progress in investing more in the NDP to help
on the decarbonisation journey.
MS: On transportation, will this government
meet targets of two thirds of expenditure
being on public as opposed to private, ie
mostly roads, transportation?
MMG:
Minister Eamon Ryan would say at the
moment that we’re not achieving the two to one
ratio set out in the programme for government.
In other words that that he’s not in a position to
spend that money on public transport projects
because a number of them are stuck in
planning. We are reforming the planning
system with the new planning legislation that
will be brought to cabinet by Darragh O’ Brien
in early October. There will be new planning
and environmental courts set up as well later
this year to try and accelerate the delivery of
the public transport projects.
MS: Will the Galway bypass be built?
MMG: I hope it will and I want it to be built.
Obviously we respect the planning process. It
has gone back into An Bord Pleanála but it is a
city that is choked with congestion at the
moment. Yes we will do more in public transport
and active travel in Galway but I think there is
a need for a relief road.
MS: When will Cork and Dublin get a directly
elected mayor?
MMG: I think that will take some time. The
people of Cork have already voted against
having a directly elected mayor so the
government’s priority now is to get it up and
running in Limerick because it’s the only city
that actually voted to have a directly elected
mayor so that legislation is going through the
Oireachtas.
MS: Big one here: do you expect to replace
Micheál Martin, and when?
MMG:
[Laughs] Well I’ve always said I’ll cross
that bridge when I come to it and you know I am
ambitious for Ireland, not so much ambitious
for myself. But you know time will tell.
MS: Can you give us an exact date?!
MMG:
I certainly can’t because I think Micheál
is going to be there for quite a while but you
know I have no decision made on that and I
think he’ll be there for some time yet.
MS: Is there any thinking within your
department about the need to plan out for
the economic prospect of a United Ireland,
and can we afford it?
MMG:
I think the focus really is on building
relationships with all strands of the community
in Northern Ireland. We have invested a lot
through the shared island initiative and there
is ongoing work to improve relationships, to
build dialogue, to increase the flow of cross-
border investments and the question of the
economic impact of a united Ireland is one that
will be considered over time. But I don’t want
to take any steps that would be seen as
provocative because I think for now the focus
is on getting the institutions there up and
building relationships, and we are now directly
investing in Northern Ireland which is I think a
very welcome development.
MS: As a father of a young family, how do
you balance your life as a Minister and
your responsibilities as a father of seven
children?
MMG: I’m not sure how well I do, and certainly
not in the lead up to a budget. But they are they
are a true gift and I do love nothing more than
getting as much time as I can on Saturday and
Sunday to spend it with them particularly to be
on the sidelines at their sporting and other
activities. I love cheering them on and I’m very
conscious that time moves quickly, they grow
up, and I want to be part of it and I want to be
part of it as much of that growing up as I can,
I think it’s unrealistic to say that if you
spend billions of euro more next year
you’ll get tens of thousands of extra public
houses next year
